French Military Victories
- January 29, 2003
- 152 comments
This is hilarious… Jonah Goldberg posted it over at The National Review.
Kevin, again, what can I say? So four families out of how many in the entire US retracted their offer for French kids. Big whoop. I imagine that quite a lot of French students still came over and were treated just fine.
Which is worse? People who make Web sites that say French suck, America suck or people like Quift who take the time to intentionally post inciteful comments on those sites to get a rise out of people?
Kevin
September 10, 2005
Both are quite stupid. Quift reaction proves that some europeans lose their patience. But they get the target wrong. This is just governements the responsibles, not the nations. However, as Quift says, USA rules the world, the responsability is huge, so you american people have to show the good example. If USA crushs others nations, USA will lose (like Roman empire, Napoleon, Queen Victoria), but if you listen them and don’t interfere with them, you should win the respect.
We rule the world? I’ve been told we both rule and don’t rule the world by people from all over. Which is it? I personally don’t believe we rule anything except our own country, and sometimes I even wonder about that.
I don’t believe we’re crushing any nations. Look at what’s come out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Where there used to be regimes that harbored terrorists and oppressed their people, there are now the beginnings of something better. I’m not saying those countries are now utopias, far from it, but I am saying they’re better off now than they were before.
Sean
September 10, 2005
Thanks for the support, Sean, but telling them to shut up and leave isn’t going to smooth things over. I don’t mind people leaving comments and sharing their opinions, even if they disagree with me. What I do mind are stupid comments like Quift’s last one. It’s either a really poorly delivered joke or he sadly really believes all that.
Sean
September 11, 2005
joe
September 11, 2005
This really is amazing. A simple joke blew up into a full fledged debate with the shakily allied forces of Sean and Chris against the forces of Kevin and Quift “The Queef”. I look forward to opening my email inbox and seeing “Someone just responded to your comment on chrisruzin.net”. It’s interesting to me as to how such a simple thing like a joke turned into a debate as to what country is deserving of which stereotype. I for one feel that the initial joke was funny. Now the topic has become more complex and is slowly deviating from the first post. At the current pace this is going, a year from now the debate will be continuing but with a topic like ” which is better, Pepsi or crappy Coke”. I really do enjoy reading the new comments and the calmness as well as the apparent research each post-er puts into his/(her) comments. Thank-you to all who have been involved for continuously making my day
Kevin
September 12, 2005
USA rule the world, maybe you don’t want to but the fact are here. Nothing can stop its use of its military power even UN can’t stop USA.
And I’m sure Iraqi people thinks the situation is better. They don’t have petrol for themselve. The sunnites drive car bomb on chiites people. Policemen are executed in the street, etc … The US has changed the destiny of Iraq, why ? weapons of mass destruction … No kidding ! the US rules the world and those examples mark the reality.
Chris, you say you’re not crushing others nations. It’s wrong. Chirac disagrees with Bush. Result : an anti-french campaign in order to ridiculize France. And the worse : a major part of amercan sticks to it
Kevin, I don’t want to burst your bubble, but the UN can’t stop any nation from doing what it wants. Could the UN stop the Iran/Iraq war? Could it stop the massacre of the Kurds? What about the Bosnian War? How about the genocides in Africa? What about Iran’s current nuclear campaign? All of those were “monitored” and talks after talks were had by the UN, but nothing was done to prevent these things from taking place. But that’s because the UN can’t do anything about it, not because they don’t want to.
If you believe what you read in the media is the only stuff happening in Iraq, then you’re misinformed. There are plenty of great things going on Iraq too. People can now voice their opinions without the threat of death, rape or torture. People can actually vote now! The birth of a nation is rarely a pleasant, simple thing. There are factions within Iraq that have fought each other for a long time. Just the fact that they’re working together to form a new government is a monumental achievement. More Iraqi kids than ever before are now attending school. There are over 1500 rebuilt/reonvated schools for them to go to now. A better educated society almost always leads to a better way of life for the entire country. More people have electricity now than before the war. Iraq’s largest port city has been completely modernized. Water and sewage treatment is being improved in most of the major cities. There are 35,000-50,000 Iraqi police, with more signing on every day despite the terrorist attacks. The people want to live free and are meeting the challenges head on. They’re not folding to the terrorist’s tactics, and that’s always a good thing.
You’re wrong about a majority of Americans supporting the anti-French campaign. The whole stupid “Freedom Fries” movement and French product boycott was very short-lived because hardly anyone supported it. And are you really saying that because some Americans decided they weren’t going to drink French wine and eat French cheese that France was crushed? That’s almost laughable! This whole thread you kept saying how strong and brave the French are. Now you’re suddenly saying that the French were crushed because some Americans were upset with them.
Kevin
September 12, 2005
Chirs , i don’t understand why you say that but in your last post you have just demonstrated that Bush can’t be stopped as Milosevic, Saddam or the Ayatollahs. It’s really frightening ! UN can’t do anything directly but they can legitimate an intervention as French army in Ivory Coast.
Iraq has become the rallying point for a growing jihad, unemployment is closer to 50 percent, murder and rape are daily occurrences, the treasury is looted, the museums are looted. The election was shoved down their throat because all the major parties, including Allawi’s party, requested that the election be postponed.
“we have added crisis right now of petrol, Iraq was an exporting country of diesel fuel and refined oil products. Since the occupation, we have been importing oil from Turkey. No one fixes the refineries. There is a huge queue of cars waiting to get oil or petrol. And the Congress, the U.S. Congress said in 2003, May 2003, seven out of 18 governmentals had more than 16 hours of electricity. Now we are getting two hours of electricity right in Baghdad. I am lucky today, I have electricity from 7:00 to 9:00 and that is going to be all. Until late in the evening, maybe, I don’t know when, I’ll get the electricity” A baghdadi interviewed by Amy Goodman 31/01/2005.
Well, I’ve just said USA crushs other nations, but see me or our army, I don’t think frenchmen are crushed (no french soldiers in Iraq). Unlike to Brits who are crushed, Blair makes war to Iraq because he is the servant of Bush, British people protests against this war. I speak about UK but i can add Spain, Italia, Poland, etc. For all that, we can see the English army in Iraq. De Gaulle has made the France independent from US influence. Except Russia or China, try to find another powerful country.
Becouse our countries are allies since 200 years, american thinks that France will comply with USA as a nice dog ? By no means !! The French disobey, the french don’t think like us, so i hate France. THAT is laughable ! Chris, we’re not keen on this kind of democracy …
My point is the UN is toothless. Even if it wanted to stop a nation from doing something, it can’t. So just because the UN can’t “stop” the US, doesn’t mean the US rules the world.
Imagine what would’ve happened if that interviewed Baghdadi had said those things about Saddam when he was in power? He would’ve been killed! Plus, it’s easy to find people who will say what you you want to hear. For a different perspective, check out the following blogs from people who live in Iraq:
Iraq the Model
Sooni
Iraq and Iraqis
Healing Iraq
Hammorabi
Democracy in Iraq
Like I mentioned before, Afghanistan and Iraq aren’t sudden utopias now. It’s obvious things are tough there, but the people at least have hope now. And they’re embracing that hope and trying to make their lives better and make a better country.
Kevin, up until now you’re comments have been thoughtful and well said. Your last two paragraphs are starting to sound like the typical moonbat with delusional visions of America. Who says the Brits are crushed? Apparently, in your delusion, if anyone agrees with America, they’re crushed? Do you not see how amazingly arrogant that statement is? How is that statement any less arrogant than Americans thinking you’re stupid for disagreeing with us? Both statements are cut from the same cloth.
Kevin
September 13, 2005
But UN was created in order to set up a legislation between nations. Why UN was created ? In order to avoid a third world war and enable every country in the world to have a voice. It’s just democracy between nations. If UN doesn’t exist, the strongest nation would take the control, as Napoleon, as Hitler etc. When the US, the most powerful country in the world, come to a unilateral decision of attacking Iraq without the UN consent, without valids reasons, what can we think ?
Chris, you’re talkink about hope, i’m talking about reality. It’s obvious that your intervention has created more problems than she resolves them.
My last two paragraphs aren’t arrogant, it’s just the true.In 2003, France opposed his veto against a US resolution for a war in Iraq. So we have clearly showed that we’re not agree with americans. Those anti-french sentiments appeared in 2003 (a major part). It’s not a coincidence. And I apologize to brits, they’re not crushed. On the other hand Blair is subjected to Bush because he prefers following the US president than hearing british voices. Aznar and Berlusconi are the same, they don’t listen their people. There are no others explications that they are subjected to Bush. They are crushed under the US influence. My Italians friends share this point of view. Maybe you think I’m exposing an evil view of USA so you could think I’m arrogant but sorry I’m objective, it’s just facts.
I guess the other countries who helped us with the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan don’t matter? Or they don’t count? Look up the meaning of “unilateral” and you’ll realize the US didn’t act unilaterally. It’s ok though. You’re just using the buzzword everyone likes to use.
Nothing is obvious, Kevin, except that you didn’t even bother to read the sites I linked to. They also deal with reality. It’s also obvious that no matter what I say, or even what they say, you’re going to continue believing Iraq is a horrible place without any future. All I can say is I’m glad Iraqis are showing more resolve and determination than you are. If they were all doom and gloom like you are, the place would be destined for failure.
I can’t believe you think anti-French sentiment began in 2003. Sure it became more prominent in 2003, but so did European anti-Americanism. Anti-American sentiment has been around since before the US was even a country!
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the intelligence agencies of England, Italy, Australia and other places have any input into the decisions of these leaders? How is it that so many countries intelligence agencies all agreed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction? Even France’s intelligence agency agreed with that! Almost everyone agreed something needed to be done about it, but what to do is where the disagreement occurred. I’m sure you’ll put on your tin foil hat and say the US “crushed” them so they only acted like the good little Bush-robots they are. But every time you say that, you’re belittling that country and its intelligence.
“I’m exposing an evil side of USA” is laughable. I know the US has done some bad things in its history. ALL countries have done and do bad things they aren’t proud of. All countries make decisions that aren’t popular with their people sometimes. It can’t be any other way. Mankind is evil by his very nature, so bad things can and do happen. No nation is perfect and pure. Not even your beloved France.
You keep saying you’re sharing “facts” when you’re only sharing opinions. So your Italian friends agree with you on this. Big whoop. I have German, English, Australian and Brazilian friends who agree with me. Does that mean everything I write is fact? Of course not. I don’t have access to all the information that the governments do, and neither do you. So be honest, at least with yourself.
Kevin
September 13, 2005
Don’t tell me there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, It’s like the monster of Loch Ness, everybody talks about it but it doesn’t mean the monster exists. Till then, nobody find them, neither UN inspectors, nor your troops.
I’m sorry if i can’t express myself in english perfectly, but i didn’t want to say there is no future in Iraq. Saddam is a tyran, he had his ass kicked, (good job), but i don’t think an Iraqi is happy to wait 2h in order to fill up. Imagine : it’s as if there was no wine or cheese for french people since the liberation in 1944-1945. I would feel lucky because I live in Dijon (Burgundy, for wine amateurs).
Unilaterally means : which come from only one part in presence (in the dictionary). From the last news, US and UK (the part for the war) have taken the decision without the UN consent, because France, Russia and China (anti-war part) didn’t agree with the US resolution. So it’s a unilateral decision.
When i says some italian friend shared my opinion it’s just about Berlusconi. They aren’t proud of their president because he has implied Italy in this war against the view of italian people. However It’s true for UK and Spain, there were a lot of anti-war protestation in those countries, and they were particularly strong in Spain. Their leaders have behaved as Bush-robots. They have completly ignored what their citizens felt. We have an expression in France for that : they drop their pants in front of Bush. But I prefer say they had some interest in this mess.
I’m agree with you, the mankind is evil by his very nature. But there is no reason to tolerate those kind of people. Terrorists are evil, so we kill them, Saddam, Hitler, Milosevic are evil so they had their ass kicked. Now i wonder why you support Bush ? Everybody knows that if he really wants to expand democracy in the world or make real preventive attack, the North Korea would be invaded by US troops. In Iraq, the petrol reserves had been nationalized by Saddam, so westerner couldn’t approach those reserves. Bush (Cheney) didn’t like it, so … You know what it follows.
Did Saddam not really gas the Kurds and others within Iraq? Was that just a big media scam? Did Saddam not really use WMDs in the Iran/Iraq war? Did the UN not really find and document the WMDs they found in Iraq after the Gulf War? What was the purpose of having inspectors in there if they didn’t have WMDs? So the UN was actually perfectly happy with the forced ending of inspections by Iraq in 1998? Was there any intelligence agency in the entire world that didn’t believe Saddam had WMDs before inspections were terminated? No one could conclusively say that Iraq didn’t have them, not even the UN.
That said, intelligence has since been shown to be off. Major flaws in the ways intelligence is gathered and analyzed have been exposed, and they are being dealt with. I personally think the CIA and others relied too much on “eye-witness” accounts from Iraqi defectors. Who’s to say these witnesses didn’t exaggerate or embellish their accounts so that the US and its allies would be more inclined to attack? It sure seems like some of them did at least.
Like I mentioned before a couple times now, Iraq isn’t an overnight utopia now that Saddam is gone. It’s a scary, tough place to be in right now. My cousin recently came back from serving 13 months in Iraq, in Baghdad. He was wounded twice during battles and received two Purple Heart medals. He has some interesting stories to tell about the terrorists and some of their tactics. He also has some great stories about people standing up to them and moving forward with rebuilding Iraq. A bowling buddy of mine also recently came back from Iraq, in another part of Baghdad. He was in charge of checkpoints and talks about how friendly the Iraqi people were with them. I would rather believe the stories from my friends and relatives who’ve been there over the endless doom-and-gloom stories of a media intent on making this out to be another Vietnam.
Unilateral means making a decision on your own without consent from others. We DID have the consent and backing of several others, just not France, Germany, Russia and China. If you want to go by your definition, then nearly every single decision made by the UN has been unilateral since there has hardly ever been unanimous consent on anything in the UN.
Second half to follow…
I know there were anti-war demonstrations led in many countries, especially in places like Spain. There were several very large demonstrations here in the US. I agree with you also that the different countries who both agreed AND disagreed with the US made their decisions with national interests in mind. What country ever makes any decision without its own interest in mind?
Oh man. I can’t believe how many people bring up the dreaded, evil “O” word, oil. As if the US is the only country that has any interest in oil. I guess every French vehicle runs on cheese and your entire industrial machine runs on wine? And of course the US will use more oil than any other country! It’s not only one of the largest countries in the world, it’s one of the biggest manufacturers and producers in the world! It’s simple logic. You make more, you need more. And if Westerners couldn’t approach Saddam’s oil reserves, how come the French oil company TotalFinaElf was able to gain a very profitable contract with them?
Now don’t get me wrong. I have zero trust in oil companies. In fact, I despise them. No other industry can claim the kind of record revenues these companies continually are making. It’s obscene really. But oil itself, isn’t an evil thing. Just like money itself isn’t an evil thing.
Laurent
September 14, 2005
Chris: “What country ever makes any decision without its own interest in mind?”
None.
But let me ask you one question: why did the US go to Iraq? That is, what the administration had in mind when they started this war. What is the big main motivation behind this huge sacrifice?
Terrorism? Saddam had very little link to Al Qaeda, and the american administration knows/knew it.
WMD? These WMD never were a direct threat to the US. Moreover, Saddam had no WMDs left. It would be extremely naive to think that the CIA would not have been able to figure that out.
Democracy? Bush was not speaking about democracy when he started the war.
What’s left?
Here is some fact.
Before 2000: dollar is going up, euro is going down
2000: Saddam Hussein began selling oil in euros, thus breaking the petrodollar hegemony
2000-2003: dollar is going down, euro is going up
2003: immediatly after the war, the sales of Iraqi oil were switched back to dollars
Sean
September 14, 2005
This is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How did we get from talking about a joke on a wedsite to talking about who authorized the war in Iraq? You guys are pathetic. Kevin you don’t live in the USA you’re not in our goverment, you can’t even write in english properly on the internet with ummmm, translaters for free all over the internet go to yahoo type translaters and you get 70,800 choices. The comment was a joke, the joke was funny not racist, the US does NOT rule the world, we did NOT force Britan to join the war in Iraq, Iraq is better off. you and Quift are just defending you country and I can respect that but we where not trying to insult France just have a laugh your turning it in to a full blown debate just like joe said. Drop it now or you will be here for the rest of your God forsaken pathetic lives. I hate checking my email now. Whant to hear a joke my history teacher told me???? There is a French military rifle on sale never fired but dropped once (when it was surrendered to the enemy). Thats probly going to get a billion comments. Why don’t you guies get lives insteade of wasting ours.
Sean
September 14, 2005
Correct me if I’m wrong the but the war isn’t called “War on Al Qaeda”, it’s the “War on Terrorism”. Yes, Saddam had a few connections to Al Qaeda, but he had other connections to other terrorists. He harbored some well known terrorists. I even believe he killed one of them because they threatened his iron grip on Iraq. I could be wrong on that though.
WMDs in the hands of terrorists will be a direct threat to the US. To think that terrorists wouldn’t try to get their hands on them, even through Saddam, is a dangerous assumption to make. Iraq had the capabilities to make WMDs, and they showed they were willing to support/aid various terrorists. It was only a matter of time.
Bush WAS speaking about democracy even before the war began, along with WMDs and ending Saddam’s regime. It’s just that everyone who opposes the war only focuses on the WMDs. They know he’s right about the other points, so they only focus on the WMDs.
If you think the value of a currency is only based on oil, then you have a myopic view of economics and the world economy. One that’s apparently highly influenced by your views (and hatred) of Bush. And a weakening dollar might actually be good for the American economy.
Like Sean said, it’s amazing how a simple joke can twist the panties of some people into such a tight knot that they start foaming at the mouth, spouting anti-Bush, anti-American drivel. Sean, it’s not a bad thing that a joke brings up other semi-related discussions. It becomes bad when there is no longer a discussion, but mud slinging.
Kevin
September 14, 2005
I don’t know what thinking about the situation in Iraq, you look sincere, but when I saw the last news : 152 persons killed in 10 suicide attacks, the bloodiest attack since 2 years …
On the WMD, their origins are France (nuclear), USA (anthrax), and Germany (chemical weapons). Ours governements have exchanged them for some right on their petrol. But this business stopped in 1990-91 (gulf war). When Saddam has gased the Kurdes, the gas was german, the planes were french. Maybe the westerners don’t want to find them because they are still stamped “made in France” or “made in USA”. But when Bush said Iraq got some WMD so we have to invade them, it’s just hypocrisis. Sure, Saddam used to get them but nobody can proves they still exists. It’s not a valid reason, even the reason of bring to Iraqi the democracy. Otherwise, why Bush doesn’t declare war to North Korea ? not a democratic country, a lot of WMD, but no petrol …
And watch the consequence, Iraq is another rallying point of the terrorist, the relation between France and USA are worth than ever, Arabes nations hate even more USA. Several GI have died, UN was ridiculized. Ok now you have more petrol for your car. But i can’t believe you thank Bush for all that.
Now i’m asking your common sens. Your leaders need more well trained and well equiped troops in Iraq. The job there is long and not easy. It was more easy during gulf war or Kosovo because there were UK, USA, France and Germany in the place. It was an impressive coalition. How can you rely on French army in the future if you don’t respect them ? Before 2003, the anti-american sentiment was nearly inexistent. There was just compassion and sympathy after the 11/09/2001. In Afghanistan we were in the mess.
Now when we saw your reaction since 2003, more and more frenchmen ask if we have to go on with USA.
Laurent
September 14, 2005
Sean: “This is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How did we get from talking about a joke on a wedsite to talking about who authorized the war in Iraq?”
This joke is 2 years old… what do you expect?
By the way, why is it a problem to you to switch from a joke to a more serious topic?
Chris: “Correct me if I’m wrong the but the war isn’t called “War on Al Qaeda”, it’s the “War on Terrorism”. Yes, Saddam had a few connections to Al Qaeda, but he had other connections to other terrorists.”
I understand your point of view, I really do. Saddam HAVE HAD WMD, Saddam DID give some money to terrorists, Saddam KILLED thousands.
“WMDs in the hands of terrorists will be a direct threat to the US. To think that terrorists wouldn’t try to get their hands on them, even through Saddam, is a dangerous assumption to make. Iraq had the capabilities to make WMDs, and they showed they were willing to support/aid various terrorists. It was only a matter of time.”
This may be true.
I might even have thought it is Bush’s main motivation, if it was not for his inconsistency in describing the way Iraq was a threat to the US.
Each of his speech was not exactly the same mix of Al Qaeda, WMD, war on terror, or axis of evil. It was fuzzy at best, complete nonsense at worse.
You don’t start a war on that alone, or do you?
“Bush WAS speaking about democracy even before the war began, along with WMDs and ending Saddam’s regime. It’s just that everyone who opposes the war only focuses on the WMDs. They know he’s right about the other points, so they only focus on the WMDs.”
My mistake.
However, this is hardly the number 1 motivation for this war, or is it?
“If you think the value of a currency is only based on oil, then you have a myopic view of economics and the world economy. One that’s apparently highly influenced by your views (and hatred) of Bush. And a weakening dollar might actually be good for the American economy.”
The value of a currency is certainly not based only on oil. It is also true that the US economy would collapse if all OPEC members began to sell their oil in euros.
DAFS “petroeuro”
What do you think finances US titanic debt?
“Sean, it’s not a bad thing that a joke brings up other semi-related discussions. It becomes bad when there is no longer a discussion, but mud slinging.”
I am so sorry. Get a shower and forget about that, you’ll feel better.
Laurent, I wasn’t talking about you when I was referring to mud-slingers. I was in fact defending your posts and others like Kevin’s. Your snide comments to me will be ignored on that topic.
So you think Bush lied because his speeches weren’t the “appropriate mixture” of WMDs, democracy, War on Terror and Axis of Evil? Are you kidding me? Bush’s speeches didn’t meet your criteria so he lied. Amazing.
I know that OPEC doesn’t finance the US government’s debt. That distinction goes to Japan (40% of our foreign debt), followed distantly by China, the UK and various Caribbean banking centers. There’s no doubt the US government’s spending is WAY out of hand. There’s a push for spending accountability within the government, but I don’t know how that can be enforced.
I also know that if the US dollar dropped suddenly, it wouldn’t just be bad news for the US economy, but for the entire world’s economy.
Kevin, I’m not ignoring your post. I’ll respond to it later.
Kevin
September 15, 2005
Sean, i’m really sorry if my english is poor. It’s not my native language. You can’t accept some criticism from frenchmen whereas you crack joke on them, who is arrogant ? Maybe I do that because I don’t see the difference between anti-french sentiment and your joke …
What is the difference between a yoghurt and an american ?
Some day, the yoghurt will certainly develops culture …
Anti-americism or just an innocent joke ?
Have we grown civ? This is ridiculous, logged on the get my daily fill of american bashing and whats this? Consencus! Between Europeans and Americans. Wath happened to all the arrogance insulting? (BTW, why do we have to do this i english, grench is such a marvelous language to isnult someone in. Beyond comparison). And off course people hate americans abroad, you are the new Rome. Pax Americana and so forth. The concept of us Europeans being rules y midwestern cousinmarrying hillbillys with no sense wathsoever of culture (two kinds of cheese, one orange, the other one yellow, And thats they are refered to) annoys us to no end. Your ruling the world (even tough you are on the decline now). We don’t like it.