Muslim Logic?
- July 04, 2003
- 29 comments
I just don’t get it. I don’t think I’ll ever understand what goes on inside the head of some Muslims. Let me explain. Today, there was an attack on a Shiite Muslim mosque in Pakistan that killed over 30 people, including security guards and 3 of the 4 attackers. It’s almost certain that the attackers were Sunni Muslims, who are the majority in Pakistan. Shiites and Sunni do NOT like each other. Iraq is an example of this.
After such a horrific incident, watching your friends and countrymen getting blown up and shot to death, what would you do? I’d demand justice and have the authorities find and arrest the responsible Sunni groups. What do the Shiites do?
First… already being angry about a shortage of doctors in the area, the Shiites go to the very hospital where the bombing victims are and try to burn it down. How STUPID is that? I know… I’m angry about there being too few doctors, so lets go burn down the only place in town that DOES have doctors AND is trying to help my injured friends. That’ll solve the problem!
Second, along the way, they burn and destroy buses and cars. That always solves the problem. Burn irrelevent objects and the possessions of innocent people! Works like a charm.
Third, to keep the froth in everyone’s mouth, a Shiite Muslim leader blames the attack on Musharraf. Even though he has not one shred of evidence. So not only do the rioters get all riled up again and chant anti-Musharraf slogans, they chant anti-American slogans as well!
So to sum up. Sunni Muslims attack and kill Shiite Muslims. The Shiites respond by trying to burn down the hospital where their friends are, burn innocent people’s cars and blame the attack on their president and the US. Completely logical, don’t you think?
Here’s another article on it at Yahoo!. That means the link will rot, so check it out before that happens.
Chris
July 4, 2003
deejaycez… you must have skipped over several key words in my post. I didn’t generalize 1 billion Muslims. I said “some” Muslims.
I CAN judge their reaction, whether I was there or not. Trying to burn down a hospital with your friends and doctors and other innocent people in there is STUPID, no matter how you look at it. Burning people’s cars who had nothing to do with the killings is STUPID, no matter how you look at it. Blaming the US for the attack even though it’s almost certain it was Sunni Muslims is STUPID. I don’t have to be Muslim or be Pakistani in order to make a judgement call on stupid actions. I would think it was stupid if it was Americans or South Africans or whoever doing it.
Because you didn’t read the entire post, or at least didn’t notice key words, you question my character and label me intolerant? Please…
deejaycez
July 4, 2003
Honestly, give me a break, you think a “keyword” here and there changes the tone and overall feel for what you’ve said? You call yourself a Christian? Right…
How can you begin to comment or relate to other lives, to anyone that’s suffering, what sort of life are you living? Hmm, let’s see, do they have your manicured yard, a full time job, and the materialistic life that you boxed yourself into?
You are borne of propaganda and have lost your way, God will forgive you one day.
Ask yourself, what well you drink from and thrive on? Grow up, I mean your mind…there’s a universe out there.
If you can muster it, try to come up with one good thing to say about a group of people…for example Muslims. List if here. Name American Muslims…famous ones.
deejaycez
July 4, 2003
Chris
July 4, 2003
I see… you know nothing of me or my lifestyle or my walk with God, yet because I call the actions of some people stupid, I am “borne of propaganda”, “lost my way” and have a “manicured yard, a full time job, and the materialistic life” which I’ve boxed myself into.
You tell me not to judge, yet you have done the exact thing you try to pin on me. In fact, you have done worse. Knowing next to nothing about me, you’ve called me spiritually lost, mentally immature and materialistic.
Yes, key words DO make a difference whether you think they do or not. It’s called context. It’s very easy to misquote or misconstrue someone when you take things out of context.
And I guess Christians can’t call stupid actions stupid? Because I’m not Muslim or poor, I can’t call someone burning down a hospital stupid? Christians can’t say anything even remotely critical of anything in this world? I believe that’s political correctness run amuck.
This wasn’t a judgement of all Muslims, as you keep believing. Me trying to say something positive about Muslims or naming a famous American Muslim doesn’t change the stupidity of the actions of the Shiites in that Pakistani town, does it?
Chris
July 4, 2003
deejaycez
July 4, 2003
I haven’t judged but I see I scratched a wound. Of course, as a Christian myself I feel I can reprimand another Christian. If you didn’t feel as though you were generalizing then next time comment without labeling a group of people whether Jewish or Hindu. I do think you are a hot headed guy with very little knowledge of the world and seem defensive but I don’t think other Christians are that way or like you.
We killed American Indians didn’t we? We even killed Jews. Yeah, I would say that in the past there were stupid things that were done by stupid people. I can because I’m American and I am allowed to critique my brethren and be pragmatic.
Rather than putting yourself in their shoes, you took the step, you judged. “Some” “a few” whatever, your tone and attitude is what drives the point I made.
I am a reflection of you, a white man who thinks he’s been everywhere done everything; I am the opposite of you. Sure I understand you but I don’t agree with you. God will judge you; I’m not worried about that. I only lifted a manhole in your material existence. I implied something about you and obviously it hit a nerve center.
That’s what the Internet does; it opens you up to all sorts of things.
You should write a pSpell Check… 
Chris
July 4, 2003
You most certainly have judged. There is no wound to scratch, only my dislike of Christians judging another’s walk with God without knowing them.
The news articles dealt with Muslims, so I also dealt with Muslims. I’m not going to leave it out if the entire story was about Muslims.
I still think it’s ridiculous that you think I have no “worldy knowledge” because you’ve read a couple of my posts. For your information, I’ve spent a quarter of my life, and most of my adult life outside the US.
Judging actions isn’t wrong. Judging a man’s soul is.
Of course God will judge me. He will judge everyone. I’m not worried that my labeling some actions stupid will condemn me to the pits of hell for eternity.
You didn’t imply anything. You stated. Big difference.
deejaycez
July 4, 2003
Chris, just because I have opinions and decided to offer them to you including my interpretation of what you posted doesn’t mean I judged you. Not to discount your worldly experience but living outside of the US doesn’t give you the world knowledge certification. Of course, I have no idea what you have done and what you have experienced. What I do have is your site; its a good window into your world. In summary you appear intolerant, set in your ways and are hard to convince contrary to whatever you believe? I have been wrong, so prove it to me but another day. Keep in mind that posting on weblogs is like revealing bits of yourself. If you reveal enough of it, one can plot your entire psyche.
Go enjoy the 4th, think about what I put on the table. You and I are missing each other because of our strict interpretations. You seem like an amicable individual who is open to discussion. Let’s take this offline but remember, I merely reflected your tone, I didnt judge you. If you felt that way then lets define the term judged and agree on it to advance our discussion.
BTW: You referenced Front Page Mag here: http://www.chrisruzin.net/comments/255_0_1_0_C/
Chris
July 4, 2003
Your critique of my post isn’t what I’m talking about. Your comments on my walk with God, mental maturity, worldy knowledge, etc. are all personal judgements, not opinions on a post.
I “appear intolerant”. Fine. You can believe it if you want. I know I am not. I am not set in my ways, but I am hard to convince. Your argument needs to be very convincing in order to make me change my opinion. So far it hasn’t been.
You don’t have to tell me about posting to weblogs and the whole window into the soul business. I know that. I decided to create one anyway. Revealing my “entire psyche”, huh? You assume I put all of my thoughts and feelings here, which I don’t. You’re also assuming that a person’s perspective and opinions don’t change over time. I’ve been commenting for well over a year on all kinds of topics. My opinions have changed since I started on several issues. Therefore your conclusions on my psyche would be off. But go ahead, take a crack at it.
I think I can guess what you’re trying to tell me. First, I shouldn’t judge a large group of people because of the actions of a few. I haven’t. My post was dealing with the Muslims in that Pakistani town. Second, because I’m not living their life, I have no right to judge them. That is irrelevant when it comes to judging actions. Either something is stupid or it isn’t. It doesn’t matter who does it or what their lifestyle or religion is. Nor does it matter what my lifestyle or religion is. Burning down a hospital with your friends and doctors and wounded people in it because you’re angry there aren’t enough doctors is stupid. There’s no other way to see it.
That Frontpage mag link is quite old. I don’t read it. I was pointed to it by another person. Not the mag, but that exact link.
to chris,
i just read your postings about muslims around the world and their actions. though i do agree with some comments and your opinions about muslim actions no doubt it is evil, but to say that religion itself had a fault in it is not true. phrophet mohamed never spread islam with sword or enjoyed luxuries. he lived poor with one peice of cloth to wear. he married so many women … to support the widows, orphans, and the clans.
he never lived in lavish places or thought of his personal pleasures.
he was a simple man.
now about quran… the quran doesnt say to kill innocent people, women or children. there is no killing supported in quran. only self defense and defense of your family or religion . you are commanded to fight face to face like a soldier and have war not suicide killings or bombings in civilized areas where people live. thats is forbidden in islam.
i am not a scholar but i know that much about islam. what is happining in pakistan is illitracy towards religion. they alll are going to hell not heaven for killing shitte, christians and jews or hindu. iam a sunni indian myself and married a shitte. i do not belive in killing or violence of any type.
and no muslim goes to heaven and get virgins for killing people of any race.
what explanation will anyone have now… muslim killing muslims !!!! what do you say now. these muslims in iran, iraq, india, pakistan and elsewhere l are extremist who have molded the works of islamic teaching to benifit themselves. this is surely not islam’s teaching,
when you read quran yourself brother read it with open mind, and try to think objectively. its on each person how to interpret the words in quran according to their own thinkings.
when you read it again about the wars described in quran understand the stories behind them. they were face to face war, men against men . it is mention again and again in quran that do not kill innocent people, elderly, women or chidlren. support them and treat them equally as you will treat your own people. and the killing in only in war which is everywhere not only in islam but in judiam, hinduism, chrishnity, etc all had wars in their times, they still do and people are killed in wars. i am not talkinh here about terriorism but about country wars. i do not support terriorism at all, neither i belive any other muslim should.
Chris
January 2, 2004
Hi Tehm,
Thanks for the response. I do believe that organized religions of any kind have their faults, whether it’s Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever. It’s inevitable because of the fallenness of mankind.
I know the Quran doesn’t explicitly say to go kill innocent people. I never said it did. I’ve read the Quran and own my own copy. However, as you stated yourself, there is a powerful group of Muslims who have hijacked the teachings of the Quran and use it to justify their sinful killings. Just like there are some Christians who do the same with the Bible, although they are no where near as many or as powerful and influential as their Muslim counterparts.
I’m glad you don’t believe in killing or violence. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you around. I also don’t like war or killing. However, as I believe you stated too, I believe there are times when open war must be dealt with. Sometimes we’re forced into it by the actions of others. That said, I agree with you that terrorism is never justified, no matter who is doing it or what their reasoning is.
First, deejaycez IS judging, but then those of you who read his posts don’t really need to be told that.
Second, in beginning times, the Christian God met differences with a flaming sword. Why on earth do modern Christians act like compromise is the ‘holy’ thing to do? Why on earth would your God EVER need to or especially want to compromise on anything? As far as he is concerned, there IS NO OTHER TRUTH.
Third, Compromise has taken our once bright institutions (mostly America but others have felt the bite too) to an eventual diluted end, all in the name of trying to make everyone happy. (China rarely compromises and look at the reports of the crap they do AND get away with) If you always compromise, and those who attack you do not, gues which culture will win?
Right now, as we write, muslims all over the world are uniting behind the idea that Muslims are right simply because they are Muslim. (Notice I DID NOT say ALL MUSLIMS) They appear to be ready to stick to this belief against all comers until it is literally beaten out of them(or they reduce their gene pool with their suicide bombers). Naturally the rest of the compromising world says “thats ok, let them think that.” Israel has its citizens killed because it wants to hold onto land it acquired when it was DEFENDING itself against multiple MUSLIM countries that attacked it. Of coures all the Muslims say Israel is wrong…...
No one ever defeated an attacker by compromising.
brad
Tom
February 17, 2004
The case described by Chris although seemingly bizarre and counterproductive, is simply a clear cut case of politics vs. religion. We all know here in america the very a idea of mixing politics with religion is taboo. In some muslim countries it is quite the opposite. Shitte Imam’s in fact are both religius and politcal leaders and their words must be followed. What is even more scary is the fact that some Shitte Imam’s do not necessarily have a worldy well rounded education as would a Shitte from america for example. This lack of education and experience and their political, religious and influential power creates situtations like this. Sunni’s as we know are more moderate, not in their interpretation of the quran, but in their acceptance of a western style goverment.
In the eyes of some Shitte’s, an attack on them by sunni’s, is caused by corruption from westernization in which we lead the world. In this context the progression of their anger seems logical however you are right the destruction they caused is completely irrational. As for the responce by deejaycez, it seems in every message string, there is someone who makes no point except to say how everyone else is ignorant. Chris you message was in fact a question to induce a conversation. As for being a tolerant american, I don’t think we can tolerate these issues anymore. We must get into it, try to understand the issues then act decisively, poltically and when necessary militarily.
Chris
February 17, 2004
Thanks for pointing out how all-important the Shiite clerics are and how they could incite their followers to do absurd things. I can see the progression in their thinking which would lead them to think the US was behind the attack, but it’s still ridiculous. It’s very much like the class-action lawsuit against McDonald’s for “making Americans fat”. People want and need something to blame that’s bigger than themselves for the situations they find themselves in.
For the dumb lawsuit, it’s overweight people not taking responsibility for their own actions, not dealing with their own problems. They see an easy and obvious target in McDonald’s so they blame them. For most overweight people, all they have to do is stop packing their faces and eat responsibly. Take care of that, and your problem will go away.
For the Shiites in this story, their easy and obvious target is the US. The US is to blame for all their problems. If you drill that into people’s heads enough, they’ll believe it and spit it out any time something bad happens. It’s never the fault of their regional conflicts or power struggles or corrupt leadership or just flat out hatred of each other. It’s always the US. It’s always the fault of the Great Satan. It’s a great political ploy. Keep the blinders on the sheep and they will never turn their eyes towards the real reason they’re in the pits.
There are so many talented, bright, gifted Muslims in the world who will eventually become foaming-at-the-mouth zealots because they don’t know any better. If these Muslims were to rise up though and throw off the shackles of their corrupt leadership, deal with the real issues facing their countries, then you’d see things begin to change for the better. Slowly, no doubt, but things would change.
As for deejaycez, I don’t mind people posting on my site and flat-out disagreeing with my interpretation of an event. As long as they back it up and don’t resort to personal attacks, I have no problems. However, when they think they understand who I am and try to label me a conservative, hatemongering, paranoid, lazy and isolated Christian who knows no better, that’s more than I can take. That’s not debate, that’s an easy way for someone to sound like they know something but contribute absolutely zero to the conversation. It’s taking a potshot and not dealing with the issue(s) at hand.
What I really don’t get is the people your talking about, the ones who take pot shots. How many people do they really think they are fooling? It’s always so obvious when they are just attacking. My running hypothsis is they are either bored, or just really really ignorant.
I wonder how often they go back and read their own posts?
Chris
February 17, 2004
Some don’t know better. Some simply spout whatever they hear or read from their buddies, but never think it through for themselves. Some are just troublemakers.
I would imagine most don’t go back and read their posts. I know for certain there are some who post comments just to incite some kind of response. They’ll post something that’s so inflammatory that it’ll make a sailor blush. Those kind of comments I delete and don’t respond to. They contribute zilch to my site.
Sirwan
January 2, 2005
“comments just to incite some kind of response”
i think theres no doubt your defenatly trying to show in GENERAL that muslims are bad. You are trying to use a bit of everyting and manipulate facts and opinions. I have read nearly every topic and its al the same with you chris.
What about MOHAMMED ALI? dont you think hes so great now.
Chris you change the style of talk all the time, when you cant fight against the arguement you just behave sourly.
I can really see your sour and bitter personality, your on the internet for gods sake were lots of different people are reading these articles and thiinking and taking in how americans think and act. your an ambassador. you set up this site to show muslim hatred and your brother is in iraq, you would do any thing to support him and destiny.
For real, i might even think that your in the clu cluts clan, and this is supposed to be a less violent and agressive way to views.
sorry i had to post this, but this feedback
xraylion
January 27, 2005
Nothing in the history of mankind has spilled more blood, than fighting over God and religious beliefs.
“My God is better than your God”. Therefore You Must Die!
What utter nonsense. A waste of life. A waste of time. A waste of resources and energy.
Christians, Muslims, Hindis, Buddhist, the American Indians, etc., etc. It doesn’t matter. All believe some nonsensical “mumbo-jumbo” to escape the realities of day-to-day life.
Focus on the here and now. Be spiritual if you must, but turn your spiritual energies towards making the earth a better place to live. For both the present and future generations.
All major religions have extremists that go over the edge and impact society and the world as a whole.
So, what is the answer?
Abolish Religion.
Pure and simple.
The rule of universal law is coming.
Heed these words.
Mankind has torn itself apart over religion for the past 3,000+ years. Do we need this kind eternal conflict?
Is there nothing more constructive that mankind can turn to?
Mankind is finally waking up to the foolishness and waste of organized religion.
The death and destruction and deceit spread by religion can no longer be tolerated.
Wouldn’t you rather live in a peaceful society/world where there was absolutely no religious conflict?
That sounds like heaven on earth to me.
It’s all going according to God’s great plan. As always, there are a lot of profits to be made by waging war against other clans. Now that the Communists have been pounded into submission, many cross-hairs had to be moved onto a new enemy, that being the Nation of Islam; another political system that says peace and prosperity can be achieved by all. It looks like Iran and Syria will be next on the list; showing roughly 108 U.S. Military attacks against non-white and/or non-Christian nations, out of a total of 136 lunched offenses.
http://www.neravt.com/left/invade.htmJust remember who our God is (His picture is on those bills in your wallet) and remember what the Lord said: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
And if ever the second law conflicts with the first law, simply obey the first law.
“The only thing needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
Now get back to work : )
Dave
February 25, 2005
Your the man shawn, lets see what chris has to say to that. The prick he thinks hes points are always the right points. Theres nothing america is doing right, every thing there doing is for there benefit. Even when the give money to charity, at the end of the day all those africans that are getting cured will soon be working in america, its always for there benefit even tho they use propaganda to hide there missions in there economic build.
first chris, instead of replying to my comment reply to Shawns.
Dave, Dave, Dave… trying to switch to another topic and team up with someone else? How sad.
The “Nation of Islam” (which doesn’t exist other than Farrakhan’s whacked group) in no way says peace and prosperity can be achieved for all. War (jihad), martyrdom and submission are what is preached, not throughout all of the Islamic nations, but through many madrassas run by extremist sects.
The site linked to by Shawn is ultra left-wing drivel. Typical “America is an evil empire” crap. Shawn tries to make out all of America’s military conflicts as racist based, which is also absurd. He conveniently leaves out that America was also allied with all kinds of races in those conflicts. He forgets to mention that all kinds of races constitute America’s army and general population.
And Dave, your comment about charity’s “real” purpose was hilarious. Good for a laugh.
XrayLion
March 14, 2005
I would put yourself in their shoes before reacting. Do you really think you are a fair judge of the situation or their character? You jumped around the issues, oversimplifying them and generalizing about a billion or so people merely to react to a piece of news. I wonder if you think Muslims are even human? I remember how everyone used to say, Italians would forever drive taxis in NYC and sell Hot Dogs.
P.S. I’m not Muslim…just a tolerant American which is what you should try to be to set an example.